Howard Knill (West Hanningfield)

How would you make sure that this did not become a trade forum and how would we report dodgy sellers?

Jancis (Mission Control)

I think I would recognise many traders by name, we would expect to see domestic rather than commercial quantities and goods - and as for the second point, all you would have to do would be to add a comment to this particular area to blacken any seller's name immediately.

With almost no expections, behaviour on this site and its forums has been impeccable so far. I would hope that this would continue.

Anonymous

I've voted no, because I would not use such a facility. However, I cannot see a good reason for considering the no votes. If enough people want it, do it. Those who don't want it, won't use it, but they lose nothing from the facility being available to others.
Mike Ambrose

Anonymous

Hmm, do you start over-commercialising a great resource? Depends where you want the site to go Ms Robinson - I love the site for the fact that I don't get ads and offers shoved down my throat on every page, but then who could blame you for seeking to service/commercialise the huge following you've built up. An exchange SERVICE (in the altruistic sense of the word) sounds great in theory but will people continue to behave impeccably where there's money involved? I suppose people don't have to access the exchange section if they don't want to, so it won't put me off either way. Good luck with it!

Anonymous

No. It will be a headache for you, smell lots of problems concerning faulty bottles and all that. I see no gain for anyone.

Carol Horton (Bradenton)

No- I really think this would change the nature of this wonderful
site! How about starting a new forum, where one could get advice on
what to buy, where to buy it, and for how much!

David Churchill (Toronto)

Love to, but not on your site for reasons others state above. Too bad it's completely illegal here in the 'colonies'.

Ray Farris (London)

Yes. A peer to peer forum need not change the site...it could reside happily as an adjunct that sits on the side. If you don't like it or don't use it, you ignore the link. If you want to buy a wine, but can only find it in cases and want to lay off a few bottles on others in the same position or you, like me, just have too much wine and want to sell odd bits of it, 3 bottles here, 5 bottles there, rather than the cases the merchants trade in you click the link and see if there is interest. I don't see how it hurts the site

Cyril Tergiman (Lodnon)

Voted yes - not that I personally would expect to use the service much if at all, but I can see the benefits for those who would despite the potential problems. The success of something like this is subject to the honesty of buyers/sellers and the development of mutual trust. On that front, I would trust a paying member more than a passer-by, and would look for clear rating of sellers/buyers by their counterparts on each transaction.

As the owner of the site Jancis, I am not sure that the benefits outweigh the financial cost to set this up although I have no clue as to how much that would be. I for one would not be prepared to pay for access to the service for instance, but that is probably directly linked to the fact that I don't expect to use it much. If I did have a use for it, I would certainly look at the cost/benefit versus other similar services whether online or via merchants/brokers/auctioneers.

Jancis (Mission Control)

I certainly wasn't thinking of charging for this, nor - heaven forfend - taking a commission. It would probably, as some have surmised, merely take the form of a third forum to add to our general one and the one devoted to travel-related information. So, unless we get awfully techie about it, it shouldn't be very complicated at all to set up.

And on reflection I think it would be better to restrict it to members so that we have proper contact details logged. As such it would merely be an additional and decidedly optional perk of membership. All I would do would be literally provide the platform.

Mel Knox (SAN FRANCISCO, CA)

This would be great. I ve been looking for a market for my double magnum of 47 Romanee Conti and my Jeroboam of 62 Clos St Denis from Ponsot. .

Ian Burrows (Paris)

There are always going to be people who try to make money by employing unsavory tactics, that's the nature of some people. I voted YES because I would try it out. If it didn't work for me, and I got a bad deal I would simply stop using it.

I think the beauty of your site Jancis is that you never make things difficult to use... your explanation above reinforces this view I have.

Cheers,

Ian

Rupert Byng (Canterbury)

Scope for tears seems to outweigh smiles of satisfaction.

Thomas De Waen (London)

This would help solve the 2 issues that I suspect a lot of us are facing:

1. Ever expanding collection
2. Changing tastes

There is obviously scope for all sort of unsavoury activities but restricting this to members would make it much safer than the likes of ebay (a big source of wine in France).

Thanks!!!!
Thomas

Charlotte Blofeld (London)

I think I would use this service and I very much like the idea that it would be simple. The key for me will be trust and I think that members only is a good idea. Like Thomas I face the issues he lists of increasing collections and changing tastes. So yes please!

George Biswas (Virginia Water)

I voted yes, because at times it could be useful, for example when another PPer asked about the English dessert wine Harden Vale, which I had some bottles of and as far as I know was no longer comercially available, on that occasion nothing more happened.

Perhaps as has been previously proposed, those who are happy to have their contact details made public could get in touch with one another and come to a mutually acceptable agreement to buy/sell to each other.

I will certainly be watching this development with interest!

George

Philip Hackett (Tattingstone)

I have been looking for something like this for ages due to the fact that I get over excited when Jancis recommends wine and order too much and have about 100 cases of bordeaux surplus too requierments and I have now decided that Burgundy is my hearts desire. I have been knocking it out to mates at 10-15% below market pprice as I have paid duty and vat in many cases and you lose that if you sell through a merchant (Colin, I havent drunk it and I promise to deliver soon). I also have a problem that, like a breeder of puppies, I would like it to go to a good home and think my wine that I have nutured since en prinmeur would suffer psychological damage if I sent it to auction. I have even thought about e-bay!. Purple pagers could have a system like e-bay where sellers are rated or even a facebooky type entry where you set out your life and passions and assets (in a vinous sense of course).The site could even be expanded to include a 'dating section', although I must tell Patience that although I will pursue 1885 to the court of Human Rights for her I do not have a 'smart haircut' (see entry on restaurant facism)but I know a man who does, (step forward Colin). There could even be a therapy section for 'nutters'who have been humiliated on line over the price of De Chevalier Blanc (see BBR vidoe 2007) Finally... in respect of 'Helen Mirren to play Jancis'I want know exactly which purple pager has knowlege of what type of palate Ms Hilton has?

Anonymous

I voted no, purely because I have no interest in this feature. I don't face the obstacles of having too many bottles compared to my consumption rate neither has my taste changed over the last 2 years.

But I can see that many would find this an interesting and even educational feature.

Jancis (Mission Control)

Well it certainly looks worth trying out. Instructions will be given...

Anonymous

Slightly off the topic, reading Carol Horton's comment reminded me of how I wished there was a site where one could find recommendatons/consumer's notes for say a specific varietal or appellations in certain price brackets and other criteria with contibutors adding information on their experiences, where to find, price, etc.
A kind of Cellartracker barring amateur experiments with 100 point ratings and encouraging 'practical advice' rather, but most importantly with links and cross references to recommendations in the same category as being viewed. Something to consider maybe?

Larry Frierson (Calistoga)

No. Does Michael Broadbent have a classifeid wine sales section of his books? Does the New York Times Drama critic offer a theatre ticket brokerage?

It's not that such a commercial endeavor does not have value to those of us who buy wine. It's that it does not belong as an aspect a site managed by one of the world's preeminent wine educators and critics.

In short, the commercialism of it all is beneath you.

My friend Mel Knox has no lack of available outlets in which to sell his large format '47 and '62

Larry Frierson (Napa Valley)

Simon Davey (Aberdeen)

I think it's a great idea for PPers only (reputation, etc.). I have far too much booze and my therapist suggests cutting down on consumption. And I don't drink much if any white wine any more. And I have loads of the pesky stuff cluttering up my cellar. IN small and weird quantities. I'd give a money back if corked guarantee to PPers too, as I stand by my own cellaring as 'not too shabby'. Except the red Bordeaux which is all in that massive warehouse in Gloucestershire somewhere and impeccably stored (I hope). Some of it is even paid for...

Simon in Aberdeen

Jan-Erik Paulson (D-94065 Waldkirchen)

Dear Jancis,
I voted No.
Since I am a wine merchant running a small business selling fine wine, mostly to end-consumers by the bottle rather than the case, it may at first seem a self-serving thing to do.

But I think you have to see it from another point.
Small independent wine shops, who this platform would hit hardest, has to pay not only taxes, rent and other costs but also wages to its staff.
If a large portion of their trade would get lost because customers now bypassed them it would inevitably lead to a reduction of staff and in some cases closing down the businesses alltogether.
I don't mind competition as long as it is fair but if the competition, in this case members of this platform, do not have to pay taxes etc. this is clearly an unfair advantage.
We small independant winemerchants rarely earn big money but offer a service to our customers in supplying individual wines, advice and someone the customers can come back to if there are any problems.

This would certainly not hit the large suppliers of industrially produced wine, so Jacobs Creek etc. will still be available, but the small producer who sells a couple of hundred bottles to small importers will not be able to find supermarket buyers interested.

The idea of sales from private persons to one another bypassing the trade is nothing new. It has been done through E-bay for years. This has led to more Pétrus being sold than ever produced.
The amount of fraud going on is enormous.

Who will take the legal responsibilities for this trade platform when bottles get delivered that do not correspond to their description? Or who will chase unpaid bills?
A forum like this is the perfect way to get rid of badly stored bottles since the buyer has no legal rights whatsoever in claiming refunds.
No, I don't think it would do the impeccable reputation of JancisRobinson.com much good at all.
Imagine all the arguments and angry comments on this site like "I bought a bottle of Château X from Mr. Y and it didn't taste at all like your tasting notes, so could you please see if I can get my money back as I feel cheated."

Sorry if I soun negative but it really is a pretty crappy idea.

Best regards,
Jan

Anonymous

Given that the problem most of the people seem to have-inlcuding me,does anyone need a couple of cases of 95-97 Burgundies(D Mortet,B Clair, Joblot)?-I think there would be more on the "on offer" side than "i would like to buy" side. Also, despite the "harmonised EU", it is not so easy, nor inexpensive, to ship wines from one EU country to another-and I imagine you can forget Scandinavia and the "new world" completely. So, one would be limited to "in country", and primarly UK, interest. But despite all that, why not? If one doesn't care, then just ignore it. No one's forced view it, and who knows, it might be fun. So "yes", but...
for sure, "caveat emptor", and Jancis, you'd need to ensure that ANY potential legal problems(as above, and more) would be completely fenced-off from you and the rest of this site.
steve from aidlingen (soon to be back)

Andrew McKinna (London)

As an enthusiastic amateur who reads every word you and Julia write, and who follows each debate among purple pagers with interest, after re-reading all the comments to date, I have come to the following conclusions:

if the introduction of such a mechanism discouraged professionals such as Larry Frierson and Jan-Erik Paulson from continuing to contribute to the discussion on the main forum, all of us, but amateurs in particular such as myself, would be the poorer for it;

if any ultimate purchaser were to be given the impression, notwithstanding any disclaimers on your website, that the provenance of such bottles was first-class, because they had been sourced ‘on jancis robinson’s website,’ whether you like it or not, your reputation would be on the line – which seems an unnecessary risk for you to take;

George Biswas gave an interesting example with his bottles of Harden Vale, which were no longer commercially available – and I think it would be quite legitimate for him to offer, mid-thread, in context, his contact details, should another purple pager wish to contact him. Caveat emptor. But, where the bottles are readily available from a range of independent merchants, I for one would automatically pay a little more from them in exchange for peace of mind – and to encourage them to flourish. I enjoy the frank advice I receive from stars such as Noel Young.

The problems of changing tastes and an ever-expanding collection highlighted by Thomas De Waen are perhaps an inevitable consequence of being addicted to your website – as I can certainly testify! So, from that point of view, perhaps you do have a responsibility to help us!
(Just joking!) I do agree with the last comment from Steve in Aidlingen that you would - at least initially - have many more sellers than buyers. Perhaps an enterprising merchant will work out how to capitalise on this opportunity?

Alternatively, perhaps a purple pagers’ offline forum, in the sense of a marketplace, or Burgundian Paulee, where we all turn up with bottles we wish to offer, and open examples for our fellow addicts to try – in support of Wine Relief? – would allow you to match buyers and sellers in a more charitable frame of mind? Although it would not work for Mel Knox if he only has one double magnum…!

Michael Wells (Altrincham)

There will always be risk associated with buying wines of older vintages be it from merchants or at auction. The latter is of course simply a brokered sale between individuals and many merchants source older vintages from private individuals.

I think Jan-Erik's concerns over the potential for fraud and failure to deliver or pay are valid and Jancisrobinson.com would be well advised to clearly determine/exclude any potential liability in this eventuality.

There are many potential outlets for wine surplus to an individuals requirements all at a cost any individual wishing to use a pure not for profit exchange forum would need to weigh the additional risks against the lower cost.

Martin Nettleton (Billingley)

I voted yes, way back, and still say yes. Personally I don't see it being a hive of activity, just somewhere to look for interesting bottles on offer from others and to post bottles I no longer want for the reason that Thomas pointed out above.

I almost view it as a 'Swap Shop' rather than a sales-room.

If it becomes populated by Merchants flogging their wares then I expect it will be dealt with swiftly by Jancis and, since it is no more than a meeting place that Jancis is hosting, I don't see that it should be considered as the 'commercialisation of the site'.

As for the small independats, so long as the merchants don't hide in sheep's clothing, it has the potential to enhance and not detract from their business. A forum that enables members to swap and try different wines will surely lead to a thirst for those wines that are appreciated by the recipient.

The only question I would ask relates to whether the resources needed to acheive this will mean spreading them too thinly over improvements to TN databases and search engines and the likes?

Anonymous

No, I think some people will try to sell wines of poor quality or wines that were collected in bad conditions.
Also, some sellers could be winemerchants, finding an easy way to get rid of some overstocks.

Steven D. (Belgium)

Jim Copperthwaite (London)

I think it's a great idea given it remains a kind of low-key dating service for lonely bottles/cases in the cellars of paid up PP-ers. The concerns of small independant wine merchants are ill thought out in my view. If someone has anything they no longer require, they have absolutely every right to dispose of it as they wish. In many cases this will be a result of buying too much from a merchant in the first place. I think such a service will do more to educate palettes, broaden horizons and increase our appetite for the good stuff....benefiting ALL in the long run.

Frank Herfjord (stavanger)

I *understand* the small independent merchant concern - but I do not think it is reasonable. All sorts of merchandise are sold tax free in classified ads in newspapers etc. So why not wine? I also think the argument of hurting local retailers is not a very good one. Because many purple pagers are not British. Personally, I live in Norway. Availability of good quality Australian Shiraz, for example, is very bad here. But it is not so hard to get hold of desirable burgundy and champagne at reasonable prices. So having an opportunity to trade (and just MAYBE sell) would be most welcome.

Charlotte Blofeld (London)

I remain a yes. I think it is reasonable and in the spirit of purple pages to do some peer-to-peer trading of interesting wines. I am one of the wine buyers who 1. gets too enthusiastic about reviews and thus ends up with a surplus, and 2. is frequently curious to try new bottles. I think this aspect of the site could be marvelous, provided it is with trusted members, with some sort of feedback mechanism. I hope the fears of independent merchants are unjustified - surely the more we get fascinated by new wines the more (oh no!) we will be buying. And also we live in a free country don't we??! So yes please, let's give it a try.

Adrian Bennett (Adelaide)

Without a liquor license Australian's could not legally offer for sale or to exchange wine. It would be necessary to ensure that access could be limited by country to avoid any unforseen issues.

Damien Casten (Chicago)

I voted yes, in absentia, as I do not believe this is legal in the US.

The Ebay model has occasionally proven to be fallible (what model hasn't), but it is extremely successful. Most people I know who are well ranked on Ebay are obsessive about avoiding bad comments and provide high quality service and honest descriptions. My quesiton is whether or not the function would drive outsiders to become PPers and thus justify the workload and help to pay the rent for Jancis and team.

To the idea that this would take business away from retailers, I do not share the same experience or opinion. Much to the contrary, if I were to swap a case of mid level Bordeaux because I felt I had enough elswhere for a case of something I have never had, but with which I fall in love, chance are I am going to go purchase more of the new wine, and of neighbor's wines, and other examples of wines from the same region and grape, etc.

As a member of the industry, I celebrate the discovery process in whatever form it takes. The more people are passionate about wine, be it small production gems or one's first Cotes Du Rhone, the better of the industry is as a whole. I can imagine reading with envy the inevitable "off-lines" this system would inspire, and I think I would enjoy reading about people's discoveries in subsequent reports that I assume would be posted here.

Anonymous

In the late 90s I launched a site called Wine-Owners.com, precisely there so enthusiasts could trade, buy or sell and disintermediate current channels. I still have the code for this site. having asked the same question then as you did now, the answer was the same. But when it comes to trading expensive wines through a system that lacked expert inspection and provenance-checking facilities, it fell down. It became a channel for merchants primarily, just as others today have become. Enough fine wine purchasers are aware of these and other security issues for this to introduce substantial complexity. By the way, if you want the old code, you are welcome to it. martin.nick@btinternet.com

Jancis (Mission Control)

Very many thanks for this facinating and, I hope, continuing input.

It seems high time to make clearer what I have in mind for this as I think the last poster, Larry and possibly Martin have something much more sophisticated than I have.

I would see it simply as a very simple additional forum that worked very much like any other forum (our new members' forum will have many more bells and whistles than the current one) except that, if possible, it would allow posters to communicate with each other without publicising their email address permanently on the site.

I would not be involved in the transaction at all, and I would hope that no particularly sophisticated software were necessary. It would be more like an exchange of emails between purple pagers.

BUT, although I am not swayed much by Jan's argument, I am keenly aware that I would run the risk of people's blaming me by association if they ended up with wine they were unhappy with. I feel myself moving towards abandoning the idea which started as simply an offer of an additional service for purple pagers.

Martin Nettleton (Billingley)

Quite honestly Jancis, we see this exactly the same way. A bit of diverting fun and, with you as Maggie Philbin and Roger as Keith Chegwin, a Swap Shop (any non-UK residents will just have to work it out).

If it starts to loom up with possible prolems, don't do it!

Charles Mason (London)

I am a member of another hobby forum (for golf equipment - don't ask) where there is a "buy/sell/trade" forum. The host site takes no commission and it is simply a facility through which the members can advertise. There are disputes (typically over provenance, condition and completing a transaction) which are aired in a further forum specifically set up for that purpose. A disputed transction can wreck an individual's reputation very quickly, but as far as I can tell, this does not reflect on the host site's reputation for integrity and honest information. Disputes that are succesfully resolved will see the appropriate thread deleted - if not your reputation will be left swinging under the cyber Tyburn Tree...I don't see why the same would not apply here.

I also think that as a community, this site is more likely to be endowed with members with (more than) a bit of common sense. If this proposed trade forum became overrun with merchants or other commercial participants, then I suspect the membership would smell a rat and simply not use it.

Having thought it through, I vote yes. But, as in all walks of life, caveat emptor.

Thomas De Waen (London)

I completely agree with Charles on this. We are all adults and can all understand the difference between hosting a forum and vouching for its content. Why not giving it a go and closing it down if it does not work out?

Martin English (-WGC, Herts)

I voted No. I would not want to feel beholden to a member who decided, after purchase, that the wine I'd sold to them wasn't up to expectation and/or had been too expensive. I prefer the distance of disposal by broker or auction (even for a few bottles). And discontent, or commerce, would colour perception of the site.
Martin English
Hertfordshire

Christiaan Jonkers (Henley on Thames)

I notice that the ayes are winning in the poll by about 2:1, but what is the advantage? I know it is popular amongst consumers to view all middle-men as invidious, adding nothing to the product but their margin, but even ignoring the obvious services and safeguards that a wine merchant offers, most work on broking margins of 10%. What buyer would chose not to buy from an established, professional wine merchant with whose reputation and business relies on the service they offer, for less than 10% discount?

Thomas De Waen (London)

Christiaan -

Brokers will generally take more than 20% commission and will not accept a lot of the things I would like to sell (individual bottles, lesser known wines,...).

Thomas

Jancis (Mission Control)

But an outfit such as Reid Wines of Peter Wylie might well? Also auctioneers Strakers. Or even Christie's South Ken...

Jan-Erik Paulson (D-94065 Waldkirchen)

I run a Broking Service charging between 15 to 20% commission (Christie's now charge 25% buying commission).
The wines come from private cellars and we accept single bottles. All wines are delivered to our cellars (we can arrange pick-up from UK and the rest of Europe)and examined by us before they are put up for sale on our internet shop www.rare-wine.com
Sorry if it sounds like plugging but you asked.

Anonymous

I suggest you look at winepages.com to see how frequently a facility like this is used - a similar one has been in operation for a long time and is infrequently used by forumites. Anyone offering to sell or exchange who is not an established member is almost treated as a leper (I mean with extreme scepticism). Recent observation suggests it will be little used and will not poison the site if included.

Anonymous

Sounds good in principle, but is it legal?

One needs a license to sell wine in the UK and the sale of alcohol without a license carries penalties up to 6 months imprisonment or £20,000 fine...


I'd seek professional advice before embarking on such a scheme.

Ray Farris (London)

I don't buy the wine merchant argument. I struggle to find small local wine merchants with a good supply of older wines.

I don't buy the Jancis will be blamed for bad purchases argument. That's just silly. Think ebay. Think audiogon. Think gumtree. When was the last time the management of these sites got slammed because a seller was a bad seller.

I accept that some may try to pawn off bad wine. But that's easy to fix. You have a reputation system. Again, like ebay, like audio gon, etc. Also, its not just individuals that pawn off poorly kept wine. I've bought older bottles from not so small farr vintners and fine and rare to discover some good, some bad in a lot. Farr didn't buy what 1982s it has in 1985 and store it all in Octavian all this time waiting patiently for us to come along. And FRW is, explicitly, a broker.

I accept that wine brokers who want 20% of the notional value don't like the idea. But really, 20% for being an intermediary. Fine in the days of the smoke signals and the telegraph, but the internet is all about bringing down intermediation costs, not encouraging them to stay high.

Perhaps we have another poll Jancis. Purple pagers who like paying a 20% - 25% commission in order to buy poorly kept wine...Christies can't guarantee that every bottle it sells on the behalf of a seller has been kept in the dark at 12 degrees Celsius any more than FRW can.

Lets put it like this, I have a few bottles of 1998 Vieux Telegraph I would like to sell. You can read want Jancis has written about it here. Bought when it came out, kept at Octavian via Farr, I'll give you the OWC if you want though I'm not selling all 12. Its enjoyable wine, but not great wine. I'm selling because I simply have too much wine. I'll sell to peers a bit below market as set by case price of the three lowest UK merchants on winesearcher, but not 25% below market...I'll take some extra milk thistle and drink it before I dump it because it is certainly not bad! Ditto a few bottles of my still unopened case of 1995 Angelus.

And I'd like to buy a few odd bottles of some 2001s that I can't find in small local shops, at least nowhere near where I live.

And a PPer mentioned some Bruno Clair 2001 blanc (wld hv to look at the post for specifics) that he liked...I found it on winesearcher, would love to try it, but I don't need a case even if I like it...anyone interested in splitting?

This is my idea of peer to peer and I struggle to see the great evil in it assuming its not against the law.

Anonymous

OK, let's try it out. Here are a bunch of mature drinking wines, full 75cl cases, just the sort that brokers will struggle to shift at fair value, open to all sensible offers (ex duty and VAT), stored IB, delivery for whatever it costs me:

Vin de Pays des Cotes Catalanes Blanc Vieilles Vignes, 1998 ,Domaine Gauby
Ch Rabaud Promis, 1997
Cornas, 2000 ,Noel Verset
Ch Rozier, 2000
Ch Cap de Faugeres, 2000
Ch de Beaucastel, 1994
Ch Belgrave Haut Medoc, 2000
Costieres de Nimes, 2000 ,Tardieu Laurent
Pinot Noir Colleen's Vineyard, 2000 ,Valli Estate
Malbec Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot, 2000 ,Achaval Ferrer
Minervois Les Causses, 2000 ,Tardieu Laurent
Dolcetto d'Alba Boschi di Berri, 1999 ,Marcarini
Ch Belair St Emilion, 2000

martin.nick@btinternet.com
NW London

If this test breaches rules, please feel free to delete Jancis.

Nick

Anonymous

For the poster who asked: 'is it legal', the answer is yes.

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